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Joined: 11.30.2006

Age: 27
Total Games: 234
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  • Quote

    Posted: Mar 10th 2010, 08:00 pm
    Post subject: LEANing

  • "mattym"
    Beer pong is a game of skill and leaning should be eliminated from the rules.  I am a beer pong advocate from Philly and hope to get involved with the ever evolving city, state and national circut events.  When I came across this site and read the rules of local events and the WSOBP I was shocked to see that leaning is allowed.  Leaners take away from the integrity of the game.  Any beer pong player that leans should be ashamed of himself, ridiculed and be well aware of the fact that they have no skill and a noob status.  Beer pong is a game of skill and leaners take away from the beauty of a pure shooters stroke.  Beer pong is also a gentleman's game and any person who leans and does not play by the elbow rule is a dishonest sucker.  I can see with so much on the line that if the rules allow it people will lean but I am hoping to make a movement where if it does not become an official rule, it will be looked at as an unoffical rule and an embarrassment to the game.  Lets try and get this rule changed for the love of the game and to weed out those losers who compromise the integrity of this great game.  

    well all should be ashamed all the way to the bank, while these non leaners, aka no aim no skill shooters find another excuse why they cant win. u try running a 500 team tourny with elbow rules lol
Joined: 03.10.2010

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  • Quote

    Posted: Mar 10th 2010, 09:05 pm
    Post subject: LEANing

  • My regards to people who actually debate this topic with the use of some formal logic and not just repeat the same ol' (both sides of the topic mind you). I know this is a repeat blog topic, but i'm writing on this one because it seems to be a current one.
     
    I have taken the points of the pro-lean rule and agree with them. I realize the enforcability of the lean rule is pretty much impossible in a large scale setting, etc. Still, as a person who enjoys playing a "gentleman" typed game, it is somewhat disheartning to see that the the full table is ruduced to a very short distance, due to nimble leaning.
     
    I'm not looking to argue with anybody here in a serious tone, just wished to raise a few points that I have not seen in previous posts.
     
    Mainly, when games are played on the standard length table and leaning is permitted, the length from hand to cup is cut down to just a couple of feet. The reason why I do not like this is because the dominant style of shot tends to be pretty much just downward, with very little arc. When players shoot from a farther distance, as is typical with anti-lean standards, you tend to see greater diversity in the shot techniques that people employ. More specifically, ones arc becomes much more important over longer  distances. Though i have not done any physical calculations, it stands to reason that as you shoot from a distance farther away (6 ft + compared to just a couple ft) , the balls velocity is greater. With greater velocity, the odds of making a shot with a straight downward stroke becomes quite tough (lazer shots)..Over this greater distance, a higher arc can be an effective shot. I doubt that a high arc that maxes its Y(t) height is anywhere other than the point of release in a lean promitted game.
     
    A secondary point to go along with this previous idea (that a longer distance tends to be harder) is that when the game is more difficult, it takes a more honed approach to become a dominant player. Perhaps i just prefer a style of game where it is difficult to achieve 50% shot accuracy (as is common with many others sports that involve shooting into the hoop). Granted, over the series of many trials (games) the betters players will show a higher shooting percentage and the better players will emerge.
     
    My last point also deals with making the game more difficult. I feel that when the shot percentages are lower, human psyque tends to play a greater roll. Granted, if its a big game, lean or no lean, the nerves are gonna be there. However, in my experience, people tend to go on tilt more with a more difficult game, thus the mental attributes of a player may play more of an advantage (which is something special in sports IMO).
     
    I don't agree with people about how the game needs to be preciously the same for people no matter what their height etc.. Physical attributes ought to play into how the game is played.
    But, one additional point to make about the height debate is that not only does a taller person get to be closer to the cups becaue they have longer arms, but also they are higher above the cups and can shoot down into the rims instead of having to shoot up and over them as a shorter person does (even if only changing ones arc by a few degrees). I don't really have a bias on this height point as i'm 6 ft and have fairly long arms, but I can see how a short person might feel helpless.
     
    I've typed this up rather fast, the logic is hardly valid, so please kindly point out any inconsistancies in my logic or my spelling, w/e.
     
    -Serf
  • Last edited on Mar 10th 2010, 11:33 pm
Joined: 11.18.2008

Age: 25
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  • Quote

    Posted: Mar 10th 2010, 09:18 pm
    Post subject: LEANing

  • "S3rf_"
    My regards to people who actually debate this topic with the use of some formal logic and not just repeat the same ol' (both sides of the topic mind you). I know this is a repeat blog topic, but i'm writing on this one because it seems to be a current one.
     
    I have taken the points of the pro-lean rule and agree with them. I realize the enforcability of the lean rule is pretty much impossible in a large scale setting, etc. Still, as a person who enjoys playing a "gentleman" typed game, it is somewhat disheartning to see that the the full table is ruduced to a very short distance, due to nimble leaning.
     
    I'm not looking to argue with anybody here in a serious tone, just wished to raise a few points that I have not seen in previous posts.
     
    Mainly, when games are played on the standard length table and leaning is permitted, the length from hand to cup is cut down to just a couple of feet. The reason why I do not like this is because the dominant style of shot tends to be pretty much just downward, with very little arc. When players shoot from a farther distance, as is typical with anti-lean standards, you tend to see greater diversity in the shot techniques that people employ. More specifically, ones arc becomes much more important over longer  distances. Though i have not done any physical calculations, it stands to reason that as you shoot from a distance farther away (6 ft + compared to just a couple ft) , the balls velocity is greater. With greater velocity, the odds of making a shot with a straight downward stroke becomes quite tough (lazer shots)..Over this greater distance, a higher arc can be an effective shot. I doubt that a high arc that maxes its Y(t) height is anywhere other than the point of release in a lean promitted game.
     
    A secondary point to go along with this previous idea (that a longer distance tends to be harder) is that when the game is more difficult, it takes a more honed approach to become a dominant player. Perhaps i just prefer a style of game where it is difficult to achieve 50% shot accuracy (as is common with many others sports that involve shooting into the hoop). Granted, over the series of many trials (games) the betters players will show a higher shooting percentage and the better players will emerge.
     
    My last point also deals with making the game more difficult. I feel that when the shot percentages are lower, human physique tends to play a greater roll. Granted, if its a big game, lean or no lean, the nerves are gonna be there. However, in my experience, people tend to go on tilt more with a more difficult game, thus the mental attributes of a player may play more of an advantage (which is something special in sports IMO).
     
    I don't agree with people about how the game needs to be preciously the same for people no matter what their height etc.. Physical attributes ought to play into how the game is played.
    But, one additional point to make about the height debate is that not only does a taller person get to be closer to the cups becaue they have longer arms, but also they are higher above the cups and can shoot down into the rims instead of having to shoot up and over them as a shorter person does (even if only changing ones arc by a few degrees). I don't really have a bias on this height point as i'm 6 ft and have fairly long arms, but I can see how a short person might feel helpless.
     
    I've typed this up rather fast, the logic is hardly valid, so please kindly point out any inconsistancies in my logic or my spelling, w/e.
     
    -Serf

    I didn't bother to read through your whole post here, so maybe I'm speaking out of my ass, but it would seem to me that the players that are winning right now on 8ft tables are just flat out more coordinated that those that aren't winning. You think that if you make a table 9ft or even 10ft, that all of a sudden Smashing Time won't be hitting cups and the teams that didn't make day 3 are going to start cashing in? When the players flat out stop missing, then the tables are obviously too small. Until then, there is no problem with the current rules and/or equipment. Everyone needs to learn to adapt to the rules, not hold out till the rules adapt to them.
Joined: 03.10.2010

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  • Quote

    Posted: Mar 10th 2010, 09:51 pm
    Post subject: LEANing

  • You really didn't get at my comments. Thats what i'm talking about, no formal logic; just breeze by and talk about unrelated points. At the least you can read the post before replying.. Feel its respectful.
     
    I never said these skilled players don't deserve it.
Joined: 03.25.2008

Age: 27
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  • Quote

    Posted: Mar 10th 2010, 10:10 pm
    Post subject: LEANing

  • I liked Kessler's analogy of the basketball rim changing heights.  There are a couple more that I have heard that seem to be rather accurate.  Telling someone they can't lean and have to stay flat footed behind the table would be like telling a basketball player they can't jump when they shoot.....or that they still have to shoot free throws underhanded.  I agree that leaning does make it easier to shoot.  Why should we continue to keep it difficult?  By allowing leaning, the players that can adapt and maintain consistency will rise to the top the same way they do in every sport.  The fact is, the game is evolving and will continue to.  Its the same with any other sport.  Sure, beer pong's roots are in frat houses, dorm rooms, garages, home games and what not.  But if you really love the sport you should be glad that people like B/D/S have taken it upon themselves to even attempt to make some sort of standardized rules and create an event that allowa everyone to get together and have the time of their lives.  It is actually an exciting time for the sport in the sense that more and more tournaments are popping up all over the country.  As for the taller players, they prolly do have a slight advantage.  But so do the taller players in the NBA.  However I have seem some tall players shoot like shit because they lack the coordination it takes to really be good.  Regardless, shoot how you like and what's comfortable to you, hopefully you figure something out that will allow you to ebjoy the game to the fullest..
Joined: 03.09.2010

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  • Quote

    Posted: Mar 10th 2010, 11:45 pm
    Post subject: LEANing

  • "PaulS"
    "mattym"
    There is obviously more hand eye coordination needed and more skill with a longer table and no lean.  

    That is not true at all. If a non-leaner were able to shoot upwards of %80 consistently as some of the best players in the game do, then it would be true.  It is far from the truth though.  Taking leaning away would simply lower shooting percentage, and make games last longer.  The players with more hand eye coordination and skill would still win regardless of whether or not there is leaning.

    First, thanks to the few of you that have given me credit for trying to make my point and understand the other side as well. I think it is obvious that leaner or not, I respect people who love beer pong and for the most part, if you are good at beer pong, you are good anywhere with any rules. There is no doubt though when the game is on the line and you have one cup left, it is harder to hit a longer shot (with arc) then a shorter downward shot with no arc.   I understand why leaning makes it easier for a tournament structure.  However to this point above, I never said that the top ranked teams, the best of the best would not be good if they could not lean.  In fact that is probably how they got started playing beer pong, without leaning.   For me, and I am not alone here, it is just more fun to play beer pong without leaning.  
Joined: 03.09.2010

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  • Quote

    Posted: Mar 10th 2010, 11:58 pm
    Post subject: LEANing


  • well all should be ashamed all the way to the bank, while these non leaners, aka no aim no skill shooters find another excuse why they cant win. u try running a 500 team tourny with elbow rules lol[/quote]
     
    No aim no skill shooters?  I wouldn't have even started this thread if I didn't have game my man.  Time after time I have hit the last cup on a 9ft ping pong table without leaning one bit.  I'm not going to go into stats or who is better than who but  I have been polite and sensible on this thread so please don't start with your 'if you don't lean it must be blind luck' bullshit. Only constructive comments please.
Joined: 03.09.2010

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  • Quote

    Posted: Mar 11th 2010, 12:11 am
    Post subject: LEANing

  • "leftnipple2"
    DOEpong.net - They support not leaning, Check it out!

    It is my understanding that DOE stands for "Death of Elbow (rule)".  So they DO support leaning.
Joined: 07.08.2008

Age: 24
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W/L %: 66.27
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  • Quote

    Posted: Mar 11th 2010, 12:30 am
    Post subject: LEANing

  • "mattym"
    "leftnipple2
    DOEpong.net - They support not leaning, Check it out!

    It is my understanding that DOE stands for "Death of Elbow (rule)".  So they DO support leaning.

    I realize it is hard to express sarcasm in text form but I think thats what this person was going for.
Joined: 03.09.2010

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  • Quote

    Posted: Mar 11th 2010, 12:33 am
    Post subject: LEANing

  • Oh, funny guy.
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