The national Beer Pong League

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Joined: 11.30.2007

Age: 28
Total Games: 136
W/L %: 75.74
Avg CD: 1.98
  • Quote

    Posted: Nov 20th 2009, 06:40 pm
    Post subject: the future of pong

  • Billy I don't think you're going to fix #1.
    That happens in all sports and competitions.
     
    The only reason people keep playing anyway is because there are various outlets.
    If all I could do was play against NBA players it really doesn't matter what the rules or equipment are. No matter what happens I'm going to get my ass kicked. And that's why we have unofficial pick up games, middle school, high school teams ..etc
     
    For beer pong, our "training" ground is house parties. Not public schools..etc
    House parties are the source that we need to be looking to for the next generation of pongers.
     
    The real problem here is just getting new people.
    If losers get demoralized and don't come back, fine. It's truly unavoidable.
     
    Some will stick around anyway, and it's all good as long as we have plenty of new 21 year olds coming in each year. The sport will keep growing.
     
    The problem as I see it is that we're not getting very many of those new 21 year olds, and I think if we could get a lot more (think maybe 2,000 new teams??) then the rest would probably take care of itself
     

    And also - don't you think these new players are WAAAY more likely to get taken to the woodshed without an elbow rule? We're talking about not just having them player better players.. but also playing on OUR terms. It's a double whammy. I think if we had the same sort of ruleset they were used to as far as elbow rule it may mitigate that slightly.
     
    That being said, I'll just stick to #1 from here on out and drop the equipment discussion
  • Last edited on Nov 20th 2009, 06:43 pm
Joined: 08.21.2009

Age: 32
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W/L %: 0
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  • Quote

    Posted: Nov 20th 2009, 07:18 pm
    Post subject: the future of pong

  • "sauce1"
    I see where your coming from Foster.  I guess it also depends on geographic region.  My cousin goes to Nova and they all play on Bpong tables and all use WS rules.  I graduated from Lasalle we always played NO ELBOW RULE and they still do.  They have not adjusted to the BPong tables ( still play on the ply tables w/ Frat logos )
    They're 2 of the big 5 colleges in Philly so as I said guess its case by case.  The one thing I do know is when I play elbow rule my percentage drops over 50%.  

    Yeah, back when I was in College Park there was no elbow rule because everyone played on 8ft ply tables, but now that so many of them have gotten used to playing on whatever they can find, or those folding plastic tables that are for the most part 6 ft tables, they think the elbow rule was just part of the game, when it was really put in to make playing on 6ft tables like playing on regulation 8 footers.
     
    In the same sense, I play in CP now and while they do get a couple new teams every week I'd say the repeat rate is something like 10% because they might get a win in the first round of a free tourney, but a couple of the best teams in MD play around there and these new teams just can't compete. The whole whining about the elbow rule is more of a cop-out and excuse that they aren't ready for the tougher competition. I'm still fairly new to the MD scene, but there are quite a few teams there that don't lean much if at all, it's like a batting stance, people have different styles of shooting and some lean, some don't. It's more that some people don't want to put in the work to try to get better, and those people are the ones that would play casually but are not going to put up money to play because they know that they have no shot of winning.
     
    Sean is right about the point that areas like CP need to be capitalized on, and we need to bring in those 21 year olds that play all the time, but it's like the same reason I took so long to finally jump in and start playing with MDBP, you don't want to find out that you aren't as good as you think you are. While these young kids might have the ego right away that they can hang and will pony up some money to try, if they are getting beaten too badly or going 1-2 every tournament at some point very quickly they will stop paying money just to get beaten. You might keep getting new teams, but only for 2-3 months, and with them constantly coming and going you won't be able to grow, just sustain.
Joined: 01.01.1991

Age: 30
Total Games: 1
W/L %: 100
Avg CD: 1.00
  • Quote

    Posted: Nov 20th 2009, 08:03 pm
    Post subject: the future of pong

  • "bizness"
    billy I kind of think the 2 go hand in hand.

    I disagree.  I think they are two very distinct issues.  I could see that a solution may exist that solves both of them, but I do not think they necessarily require a common solution, i.e., they are not hand in hand.
     
    Problem #1 - people are very good and kick the shit out of new players that have not "trained" as the great players have.  Austin, Peter, and others have raised this as a problem that has a definite link to their attendance.
     
    Problem #2 - a perception problem.  This may be, for example, people seeing the lean on video and not wanting to come because they are not playing by their rules.
     
    Changing equipment may deal with a perception problem (as could other solutions).  Changing equipment will not prevent great teams from possibly discouraging new teams from playing.  In fact, I can present reasons it could very well make problem #1 greater.
     
    And I'm not necessarily saying we must find a solution to problem #1.  However, the Champ, Austin, Peter, Zen, and others have all discussed this problem with me.  The league organizers have said, "I am losing interest in my tournaments because the same people always win."  Maybe that's not a problem that needs to be solved, but it is an issue worth discussing because it could hinder the growth of the game (as could a perception problem, too).
Joined: 09.25.2007

Age: 31
Total Games: 12
W/L %: 8.33
Avg CD: -2.17
  • Quote

    Posted: Nov 20th 2009, 08:08 pm
    Post subject: the future of pong

  • A couple thoughts that haven't really been thought out any...
     
    1. building a little on what Foster said about there being different levels for people to play in other sports (A-league basketball, B-league basketball, etc..) why not have A and B tournaments. For examble, at a satellite have the prize for the A tournament the codes and the prize for the B tournament $100 or so. That way the good teams will still be playing in the satelite since the prize is worth $1000 but the rest of the field can enter the other tournament but most of their money will go towards paying for the codes in the A tournament. Winning is often more satisfiying for newer players than the pay out and this would give them a chance to win.
     
    2. For weekly tournaments, decrease the cost for new teams. Have the buy-in be free or $5 for first time teams. Additionally, increase the cost for a team each time they win. There was a weekly tournament in my area that initially had a ton of teams each week however Byron and Jarrod won every single week. They played for free as part of the prize for winning the previous week. Since everyone paid $30 to play each week I got the immpression that a lot of people felt like they were just donating their $30 to Byron and Jarrod. The imprssion may be different if each time they won their cost went up $10, sort of like odds. So essentially, a new team would pay $5 for a chance to win $500, a regular team would spend $30 for a chance at $500, and the teams that always win would be paying $60 or $70 or whatever for a more likely chance to win $500.
     
    Anyways, like I said, these aren't thought out at all. They may be the dumbest ideas ever. I'm sure you all will let me know if they are
Joined: 01.01.1991

Age: 30
Total Games: 1
W/L %: 100
Avg CD: 1.00
  • Quote

    Posted: Nov 20th 2009, 08:18 pm
    Post subject: the future of pong

  • "sfoster"
    Billy I don't think you're going to fix #1.
    That happens in all sports and competitions.

    This statement makes no sense.  (1) If you have a problem across all sports, that means you can't fix it?  That's failed logic.  (2) Other sports have fixed it, kind of.  You have different leagues based on different abilities.  I swim.  I'm not training with Michael Phelps (nor could I), but I'm swimming with a group of people that challenge me and help me challenge myself.  I'm not getting my ass kicked and getting demoralized by Phelps everyday.
     
    Little leagues have different leagues so that different players with varying abilities are competing against others with similar abilities, thereby creating a more enjoyable playing experience.
     
    My point is not that these solutions may apply to beer pong (but maybe they do); my point is that the problems do exist in all other sports, and if these various leagues with different abilities did not exist, you'd only have one league with one set of elite players.
     
    "sfoster"

    The only reason people keep playing anyway is because there are various outlets.  If all I could do was play against NBA players it really doesn't matter what the rules or equipment are. No matter what happens I'm going to get my ass kicked. And that's why we have unofficial pick up games, middle school, high school teams ..etc

    Ok, so now I read what you said.  We're on the same page . . .
     
    "sfoster"

    For beer pong, our "training" ground is house parties. Not public schools..etc
    House parties are the source that we need to be looking to for the next generation of pongers.

    And here's the problem.  Why does the "training" ground have to be limited to "house parties"?  I'm also proposing that there may need to be a solution for bars.  Why do bars have to be the real events for good players and house parties have to be the training ground?  Why can't the non-elite have an equally enjoyable experience in a public venue?  Why can't the elite leagues find a way to welcome *all* players and encourage *all* players of all abilities.  That's the issue.
     
    "sfoster"

    The real problem here is just getting new people.

    I disagree that this is the "real problem," but I do agree it is possibly part of a problem (a problem we work very diligently at fixing, but it takes time).
     
    "sfoster"

    If losers get demoralized and don't come back, fine. It's truly unavoidable.

    Uh, so we shouldn't at least *try* to see if there *might* be a solution?
     
    "sfoster"

    And also - don't you think these new players are WAAAY more likely to get taken to the woodshed without an elbow rule?

    No.  I won't elaborate because my reasons will open up whole different issue.
     
    "sfoster"

    We're talking about not just having them player better players.. but also playing on OUR terms. It's a double whammy. I think if we had the same sort of ruleset they were used to as far as elbow rule it may mitigate that slightly.

    Fair enough.  If people think that they are losing because the rules are different than what they are used to, that could be a problem.  However, (1) no set of rules will ever please anybody, and (2) I generally believe that any person that makes such a claim is pretty much full of shit (with some limited exceptions).
  • Last edited on Nov 20th 2009, 08:21 pm
Joined: 10.16.2007

Age: 31
Total Games: 78
W/L %: 35.9
Avg CD: -0.78
  • Quote

    Posted: Nov 20th 2009, 08:57 pm
    Post subject: the future of pong

  • "slowsen"
    2. For weekly tournaments, decrease the cost for new teams. Have the buy-in be free or $5 for first time teams. Additionally, increase the cost for a team each time they win. There was a weekly tournament in my area that initially had a ton of teams each week however Byron and Jarrod won every single week. They played for free as part of the prize for winning the previous week. Since everyone paid $30 to play each week I got the immpression that a lot of people felt like they were just donating their $30 to Byron and Jarrod. The imprssion may be different if each time they won their cost went up $10, sort of like odds. So essentially, a new team would pay $5 for a chance to win $500, a regular team would spend $30 for a chance at $500, and the teams that always win would be paying $60 or $70 or whatever for a more likely chance to win $500.

     
    I really like this idea. It allows for teams to continue to come to tournaments but also hinders them. I think if Fat Kid and Castro or Mexicali had to pay more because they have dozens of between them, they would think twice about playing together thus giving other people an opportunity to win. But it seems like this would only work for weekly (cash) tournaments. The average player would have no idea this is going on and still not come back for the next tourney for a WSOBP bid when they are only once a month or more.

  • Last edited on Nov 20th 2009, 08:58 pm
Joined: 11.30.2007

Age: 28
Total Games: 136
W/L %: 75.74
Avg CD: 1.98
  • Quote

    Posted: Nov 20th 2009, 10:34 pm
    Post subject: the future of pong

  • "sfoster"
    For beer pong, our "training" ground is house parties. Not public schools..etc
    House parties are the source that we need to be looking to for the next generation of pongers.

    "billy"
    And here's the problem.  Why does the "training" ground have to be limited to "house parties"?

    I never said it had to be limited. I'm just stating the fact that the training ground IS house parties. That is where all of us that play learned the game.
     
    We're talking nearly 100% of WS players here learned the game at house parties.
    Additionally, there are hundreds of thousands of people that play beer pong at house parties in present day. That's not saying that it's limited to house parties..
     
    "sfoster"

    If losers get demoralized and don't come back, fine. It's truly unavoidable.

    "billy"
    Uh, so we shouldn't at least *try* to see if there *might* be a solution?

    There isn't a solution. It's a competition. There will always be losers.
    Some losers will always get demoralized. you're not going to change human nature.
     
    The best we can do is encourage a larger percentage of them to stick around.
    Perhaps I should have written "If SOME losers get demoralized" as I can see what I wrote could be taken the wrong way.
     
    "billy"
    Why can't the elite leagues find a way to welcome *all* players and encourage *all* players of all abilities.

    Shit.. I'll let you know if I come up with anything but I don't know how to accomplish something like that. It's very tough to have that sort of skill discrepancy and still maintain an event regularly.
     
    It could work if you're only seeing people once a year, but if it's something like twice in a week in NJ I'm really not surprised that it eventually fell off. That sort of over-saturation will kill an unbalanced event.
  • Last edited on Nov 20th 2009, 10:41 pm
Joined: 06.03.2008

Age: 31
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W/L %: 64.06
Avg CD: 1.38
  • Quote

    Posted: Nov 21st 2009, 03:16 am
    Post subject: the future of pong

  • I'm sure there are many good ideas out there to get the casual player to come out more.  In my opinion, it can be as simple as offering more fun and entertainment to the tournaments.  As most of you have probably noticed, pong has become a complete sausage fest.  When playing at house parties girls get involved in both playing and watching games.  Most tournaments now are lucky to get any eye candy at all.  
     
    It would also be nice if people actually got drunk and had fun at these things.  Kirby and I got tanked and danced around like idiots the first time we played in a SCBP tourney.  We had a blast and I think most the people around us did too (except for a few that wanted to kill us).
     
    Anyway, people go to casinos and gamble for fun, not JUST for the chance of winning money.  If pong included a little more alcohol and a few more girls I think you add the fun factor back that we all started playing with at house parties, thus giving more value to an entry fee.
Joined: 01.01.1991

Age: 30
Total Games: 1
W/L %: 100
Avg CD: 1.00
  • Quote

    Posted: Nov 21st 2009, 07:04 am
    Post subject: the future of pong

  • "sfoster"
    Shit.. I'll let you know if I come up with anything but I don't know how to accomplish something like that.

    Neither do I.  But it seems like you're giving up on the issue and just saying "there is no solution" because "it's human nature that people will lose."  No shit.  Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I feel like there should be a way to better welcome new players without them always getting their asses kicked.  Or maybe there's a solution where we find a way to make getting your ass kicked enjoyable so you'll stick around and come back for more?  Just saying, "It won't happen," is not a solution.  And maybe there's not a solution, but I'm not willing to just give up on it.  And I don't think any of the league organizers are either.
Joined: 11.30.2007

Age: 28
Total Games: 136
W/L %: 75.74
Avg CD: 1.98
  • Quote

    Posted: Nov 21st 2009, 09:46 am
    Post subject: the future of pong

  • We need to get will ferrell to wrestle a bear after the tournament is over
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