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Joined: 01.01.1991

Age: 31
Total Games: 1
W/L %: 100
Avg CD: 1.00
  • Quote

    Posted: Dec 6th 2007, 03:52 pm
    Post subject: Redemption and OT

  • Oh shit, here we go . . .
     
    As I've previously mentioned, the one rule by which I am the most bothered is how redemption works (in the Finals).  We (all the staff that was there t the tiem) literally debated this for 4+ hours last year a day or two before the event.  We ultimately ended up semi-agreeing on something, but then I think what got put on paper was not even quite what we thought we agreed upon.
     
    There have been some good discussions on this topic, but here is what Duncan and I are possibly leaning towards.  As all great rules must be made, we debated this over some beer, just to make sure we were thinking clearly.
     
    Essentially, we'll play with the "endless ball" rule that we had last year, i.e., if Team A ends a game, the other team gets one shot per player, alternating shots, until one of them misses.  Thus, they may put the game into OT by not missing a shot.
     
    The one thing that always bothered me about this was when Team A ends the game by shooting two balls at the last cup, i.e., one cup remains, shot 1 misses, shot 2 hits.  If, and only if, Team B is also shooting at one cup, why shouldn't Team B also get two shots at the last cup like the other team did?
     
    There are certainly reasons for this.  For example, the game was over, so the fact that Team B gets any shots could be considered a gift.  There are other reasons, but to try to keep this short, I'll stop here.
     
    So thus, what if we play the "endless ball rule," unless it comes down to one cup versus one cup.  In that case, the redeeming team may take as many shots at the last cup as it took the other team to end the game on the previous turn.  In other words, in a one cup versus one cup situation, you get "what you have" (if the other team hit with one shot, you have one ball; if it ended the game with two shots, you have two balls) to try to redeem and go into OT.
     
    Any thoughts?
Joined: 11.30.2007

Age: 29
Total Games: 136
W/L %: 75.74
Avg CD: 1.98
  • Quote

    Posted: Dec 6th 2007, 03:59 pm
    Post subject: Redemption and OT

  • I think it's a definite improvement over last year.
Joined: 11.30.2007

Age: 29
Total Games: 136
W/L %: 75.74
Avg CD: 1.98
  • Quote

    Posted: Dec 6th 2007, 04:05 pm
    Post subject: Redemption and OT

  • How would overtime begin?
     
    The first team to make last cup shoots 2 balls?
    Or does the other team shoot 1?
Joined: 01.01.1991

Age: 31
Total Games: 1
W/L %: 100
Avg CD: 1.00
  • Quote

    Posted: Dec 6th 2007, 04:12 pm
    Post subject: Redemption and OT

  • sfoster
    How would overtime begin?
     
    The first team to make last cup shoots 2 balls?
    Or does the other team shoot 1?

    I think the way we had it last year was that the first team to end the game (i.e., the non-redeeming team) gets to choose whether it wants to take the first turn with one ball or take the second turn with two balls.
Joined: 11.01.2006

Total Games: 25
W/L %: 52
Avg CD: 0.40
  • Quote

    Posted: Dec 6th 2007, 04:44 pm
    Post subject: Redemption and OT

  • how about this...
     
    If Team A has one cup left, why not give them the option to have 2 shots at it. If BOTH players hit the last cup, there is NO OVERTIME. GAME OVER. If either player misses, then Team B gets 2 shots for rebuttals...
     
    That's how I always play...
Joined: 01.01.1991

Age: 31
Total Games: 1
W/L %: 100
Avg CD: 1.00
  • Quote

    Posted: Dec 6th 2007, 04:51 pm
    Post subject: Redemption and OT

  • bomber
    how about this...
     
    If Team A has one cup left, why not give them the option to have 2 shots at it. If BOTH players hit the last cup, there is NO OVERTIME. GAME OVER. If either player misses, then Team B gets 2 shots for rebuttals...
     
    That's how I always play...

    I've thrown this out before, but the response has always been that a team should never lose a game because of something he/she cannot control (such as another team's two hits).  Instead, the argument somebody always raises is that you should lose because of your own miss, not because of another team's two hits.
Joined: 10.06.2007

Age: 25
Total Games: 13
W/L %: 76.92
Avg CD: 1.23
  • Quote

    Posted: Dec 6th 2007, 04:57 pm
    Post subject: Redemption and OT

  • billy

     
    Essentially, we'll play with the "endless ball" rule that we had last year, i.e., if Team A ends a game, the other team gets one shot per player, alternating shots, until one of them misses.  Thus, they may put the game into OT by not missing a shot.
     

    When you say that the other team gets one shot per player (does this mean that there are a minimum of two shots allowed?)
     
    But then you say alternating shots, until one of them misses (which in my interpretation means shoot until you miss; once someone misses its over)
     
    How is it that they MAY put the game into OT by not missing a shot? OR is it they MUST put the game into OT by not missing a shot? This question relates to my first question about the two shot minimum. i.e., First player shoots and misses, Second player shoots and makes it, does it alternate from here or is it game over when the first player missed?
     
    Thanks and sorry if this is confusing.
Joined: 05.03.2007

Age: 27
Total Games: 27
W/L %: 59.26
Avg CD: 0.70
  • Quote

    Posted: Dec 6th 2007, 05:10 pm
    Post subject: Redemption and OT

  • hey billy, heres the way we play with final cup....
     
    Say Team A and Team B both have 1 cup left and it is Team A's turn to shoot. The way we play is that if player 1 from Team A makes it then Player 2 from Team A can still shoot... so say he makes it as well (recap- Team A, made both final shots) then Team B NEEDS to hit both their final cups to send it to OT. If player 1 from Team B makes his shot and player 2 from Team B misses his, then that is game is over becasue he did not match Team A's 2 makes.
     
    Now heres this situation.... (Team A is shooting first) Say player 1 from Team A makes his shot but player 2 from Team A misses his... Team B still has BOTH their shots to take and say both players make their shots from Team B. The way we play that is that pressure is applied to Team A for only on shot... Because pressure was already on Team B from Team A hitting 1 cup, Team B only needed 1 cup to go to OT, however, since player 2 from Team B made the second shot, that revrses the scenario and puts pressure back on Team A to only hit one shot. And this will continue until one team out shoots the other in regulation or OT.
     
    What are your thoughts on that?
Joined: 11.01.2006

Total Games: 25
W/L %: 52
Avg CD: 0.40
  • Quote

    Posted: Dec 6th 2007, 05:11 pm
    Post subject: Redemption and OT

  • since when does a team have control over the outcome of a game in any sport?
     
    if a team is any good, they should not put themselves in that position anyway. isn't this the World Series we're talking about? this isn't a friendly match between buddies here...
     
    i don't think you should lose because of your own miss, you should win by hitting cups.
     
    Maybe give Team A an option, if they hit their first shot they can:
     
    option 1: take a second shot to end it. if they make it game over, if they miss Team B gets 2 shots at rebuttals.
     
    option 2: DO NOT take a second shot and give team B 1 shot for rebuttals.
Joined: 01.01.1991

Age: 31
Total Games: 1
W/L %: 100
Avg CD: 1.00
  • Quote

    Posted: Dec 6th 2007, 05:13 pm
    Post subject: Redemption and OT

  • fryinbryan722
    billy

     
    Essentially, we'll play with the "endless ball" rule that we had last year, i.e., if Team A ends a game, the other team gets one shot per player, alternating shots, until one of them misses.  Thus, they may put the game into OT by not missing a shot.
     

    When you say that the other team gets one shot per player (does this mean that there are a minimum of two shots allowed?)
     
    But then you say alternating shots, until one of them misses (which in my interpretation means shoot until you miss; once someone misses its over)
     
    How is it that they MAY put the game into OT by not missing a shot? OR is it they MUST put the game into OT by not missing a shot? This question relates to my first question about the two shot minimum. i.e., First player shoots and misses, Second player shoots and makes it, does it alternate from here or is it game over when the first player missed?
     
    Thanks and sorry if this is confusing.

    Ok, I could interpret what you're saying a couple ways, so I'll just throw some stuff out.
     
    There is not a minimum of two shots.  If player one misses, player two will not get a shot.  The reasoning is that if there are more than two cups left, it won't matter because if either player misses, the game is over.
     
    The only situation for which it matters as to whether there is a second attempt after a missed first attempt is if there is only one cup remaining.  Based on what I was proposing, this situation arises in two cases:  (1) where there was just one cup left; and (2) where there is now one cup left after one or more successful redemption shots.  My proposed redemption scenario was directed towards case #1.  In case #2, I was (perhaps implicitly) suggesting that you only get one shot at the last cup (whoever is next in the rotation of the "one endless ball") because in this case, you were behind a bunch of cups, so you need to hit every cup to earn the right to an OT game.
     
    Regarding the may vs. must, I said "may" because a team may put it into OT by not missing a shot - you can't force a team to go into overtime.  If you want to use the word "must," then a correct wording could be, "In order to place a game into overtime, the redeeming team must successfully sink every cup . . ."  (That doesn't take into account everything we're discussing, but it gets the point across, or at least should.)
     
    So back to your original question:
     
    fryinbryan722
    First player shoots and misses, Second player shoots and makes it, does it alternate from here or is it game over when the first player missed?

    It depends.  If the team is shooting at more than one cup, then the game is over without the second shot even happening.  If there is only one cup left, then it depends on whether the first team to end took one shot on their last turn or two shots on their last turn.  You get whatever they took to redeem if you only have one cup left to hit under my proposal.
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